I’m Alex Jensen, and it’s Monday, October 25th. Last week we connected with a startup founder who chose to shut up shop due to the regulatory environment here in Korea.

Is there something else going on too, though, a global moment where people are taking stock and reconsidering their careers, and sometimes quitting. The so-called great resignation is a very real thing in the US a record 4.3 million workers there quit their jobs in August, after months of unusually high resignations and could the phenomenon also catch on here. We’ll address both that and startups in need of support on today’s show. And if you want to be represented or otherwise get involved in Koreabizcast community, a great way to do so is via LinkedIn. Just search KBLA.

Alex Jensen:  Since we kicked off Koreabizcast, one of our previous guests, Jem Kim, has joined the great resignation from here in Korea and we can now connect with her. Thanks very much for coming back on the podcast, Jem.

Jem Kim: Hey, Alex, thanks for having me.

Alex Jensen:  So, we really enjoyed talking to you last time, Jem, about ESG factors. And I think that was a bit third person with some of your personal insights where today it’s much more about you and your big decision that you’ve made. Maybe we can start with your motivation.

Jem Kim: Right. Yeah, the great resignation, the big quit. I guess that’s how people are putting it. I guess for me, the biggest impact that the resignation, first of all has had is that I saw that you can actually quit, that you’re allowed to quit. And you know, it’s you’re not doing something wrong. That was, you know, that actually gave me courage to go ahead. Of course, you know, if you read all the stories, you can read between the lines, you should probably be prepared. For instance, if you plan on not being employed, then you need to have a backup plan, you know, do you have enough savings to last you for how long? The amount of time that you plan on not working. You know, saying that when you have those considerations, then after that, you need to have the courage, right? you need to be able to make the leap of faith, sort of speak. So, in that sense, the weight resignation, I think it gives people it’s like a guiding light, I don’t know how negative or how positive it is. But it was a guiding light for me and so, it is something that I hadn’t planned on joining the rate great resignation, to be honest, that was not something that I had planned for. But for me, it kind of happened that way. And I do feel this is time I really needed in order to rethink what I’ve been doing in the past, you know, my corporate career, and what I want to do in the future, but it’s mainly Alex about wanting to live in the present, for I don’t know how long this will last. But that’s actually the main motivation to have a good look at what I’m doing now. And what my life looks like now. And the fact that I want to live in the present and not perpetually be afraid of what’s going to come in the future.

Alex Jensen:  That taking stock thing then seems to be a huge part of the great resignation, some of the stories we’ve seen elsewhere in other countries. Do you sense though, that it is something that’s happening here in Korea beyond yourself?

Jem Kim: To be honest, I did look up some news stories. And, again, to be honest, I don’t think that’s actually a trend here yet. I said yet, but I’m not actually sure if it will ever become a trend in Korea and this is my personal belief, my personal opinion. So, I cannot say that I represent everyone. But I do believe perhaps cultural factors are playing a bigger role and possibly the economic factor as well, because the job markets here may not be in, it’s really different from how the markets are in, let’s say, the US where the big the great resignation has really taken hold. It’s not as flexible for both companies and for individuals. So, I believe that it’s probably again, number one a cultural factor where you kind of lose feel like you’re losing face if you don’t have a job if you’re officially in between jobs, and I have felt that as well. So that is probably one factor. And again, the second factor is probably the, you know, the I guess what should be say the characteristics of the labor market in Korea

Alex Jensen:  for you, you in the media environment. That’s where I first met you several years ago you within in the corporate environment. A few months ago, I was under the impression you’re about to take on a new job. And then the next thing I heard just a few days ago was that you had joined this great resignation as you yourself put it, I don’t want to pride too far, I don’t want to force you to names of companies that you don’t necessarily want to say on air. But can you share with us a little bit of that progress that you made to reach this decision?

Jem Kim: Sure, absolutely. And I’m not going to say, I actually don’t think it’s, it does, it’s not as grand as the word great, great resignation sounds like you know, it’s actually not a grand life. But to talk about, I guess why I got here I’ve had this is actually my 21st year and at work, I guess that’s how you can put it. I’ve worked for 20 years at a media company, not only as a journalist, but in other sectors as well in that company in other segments, and I was also at an e-commerce company. So, I’ve been working for a long time. And you know, you have, you have to do what you have to do. I’m totally a believer in that you have to put in hard work when you have to, you need to if you want, you need to have that career. But I did for me, the reason that I decided at this point, not to move forward with that. The other job is because for 20 years, 20 years or more, I saw that I have been working for goals that were not for myself, or my family was mainly for the company I was working for which makes absolute sense, because you’re getting paid by that company. But I guess the big question mark, for me is twice, do I want to keep working for goals that are not my own? And for goals that I don’t believe in? And, you know, that’s what I’m doing now. That’s what I’m thinking about? Are those goals worth more than for me? And that’s how I became to join this trend if you will.

Alex Jensen:  Yeah, suffice to say, because I didn’t want to force the issue that almost everyone listening, probably everyone listening now will have heard of the companies that you just referred to. So, these are big experiences that you had in a very visible area of life. Was it stress, then, as well as trying to meet those goals that made you want to take stock?

Jem Kim: You know, there’s stress wherever you work, I think whenever you’re working, wherever you’re working, whoever you’re working with, otherwise, I don’t think it will be called work, it will be called play. But I guess again, the thing for me is do I believe in those goals, and a lot of times I did it, but I did it anyway, because that’s how I was taught. And I believe that’s how a lot of people were taught, maybe, maybe it’s my generation, I don’t know. But I was taught that way. And I was told that, you know, you have to go with the flow. And you have to follow those rules when you’re in an environment like that. But I’ve been actually disillusioned by the media for a long time. I know that it has, it plays a lot of you know, there’s a good side of the media. But at the same time, I’ve been exposed to the negative side for a very long time. And I was disillusioned. The recent company that I was working for, I guess it was more about whether or not do I want to work within a company where there are so many stakeholders that you need to work together with, again, for a goal that you may or may not believe in, I did feel there was probably a simpler way of doing things. And I wanted to find out what that way is. I guess that’s probably the best way to put it. A little bit of disillusion, of course, mainly, and again, I’m not saying those goals are bad or good. I don’t think I’m the one who can make that call. It’s just for me, I didn’t believe in a big part of the goals that these companies were pushing for. Again, I am thankful that I was able to be a part of it. But I don’t know if I want to go forward in my life, again, pushing for and working for those exact same goals again.

Alex Jensen: I think in Korea, we often see trends develop, and people feel emboldened by them. So, as you suggested before, if it’s not really happening among many people, it’s not likely that we’re going to suddenly start seeing people on mass resigning, but you also talked about the reaction from people close to you that can guide us there was that sense of stigma that you refer to? Can you elaborate?

Jem Kim: So, I did kind of feel people were judging, they would ask me, you know what, why would you not go back to work? Why have you quit without a backup plan? Why would you, why would you do this? Why do you want to be officially in between jobs? But the thing is, Alex, I did actually think about this after we had that brief conversation. And, you know, it was amazing for me that you know, contrary to what I thought my parents were very supportive. I mean, here I am a 40 something woman who’s out of a job, and I thought that they would be much more disappointed, and they will be concerned but they were actually like, hey, you know, having a career having a corporate career is not the only thing that you can have in life. There are other aspects. So, for me, it was like a mixed reaction like a mixed bag, if you know what I mean. Some of the people who I thought would be judging, of course they judged, but at the same time, people unexpectedly for supportive as well. So, and I’m not saying that people have to actually quit to find there, you know, true calling in life or you know, nothing like that at all. It’s just for me, that was a choice that I decided to make. And I’m just hoping that, you know, if there is stigma, people will, if they can kind of refrain from judging and kind of think for a minute, if, you know, if this is something that they want to do with their lives, then if not, maybe for other people, too, that’s the right choice for them.

Alex Jensen:  Putting aside all the different possibilities of individual circumstances, you are a woman in Korea, who had achieved objectively a high level of success. Are you nervous about working your way back into the workplace, especially as a woman who’s a mother, as that in itself has been a stigma in the past?

Jem Kim: I’m not sure. I mean, no, actually, I would say yes and no. But things have gotten much, much better than I think compared from, like, 10 years ago, when I did feel there was a lot of discrimination towards women and working mothers. But going back to your first question about, you know, having had some level of success, I am actually very concerned and scared about that. But you know what? The reason that I decided to do this anyway was, and this goes back to, I guess, the real motivation, you actually kind of pulled it out of me. I don’t want to be working in toxic environments anymore. If you know what I mean, you know, the managers who treat people who don’t treat people the way they should be treated. You know, I don’t think you have to take that anymore. And I’m not saying necessarily that this was what, you know, the specifically the reason why I left the two companies, but there is always that element, I think, if you are leaving a workplace. And I just felt that is something that I do not want in my life. So, when you weigh things, so is that is that more important? You know, for instance, having a career but being in a toxic environment? I guess it’s a matter of which is more important to you. Is that more important or something else? I haven’t found it yet. But is there something else factor? Is that more important? I guess for me, that’s, this is what I have to figure out.

Alex Jensen:  What advice would you want to leave with employers who might be listening now, if you had the opportunity to change their minds about how they do business here in Korea, especially, how they relate to their employees?

Jem Kim: You know, that’s a really great question, Alex. Um, in my opinion, as both manager and somebody who has been under management, I would say, you know, you see a lot of stories about how some companies push for KPIs. Right? And for performance, in ways that they should not, and they do get results. But you know, those results are usually short term, usually short term, it’s really difficult to get sustainable, long term, high performance, if you do not treat people the way they should be treated. I think, you know, so it makes sense for their business. If you want sustainable long term, you know, profit, then you should be treating employees the way you would want to be treated. And it just makes sense for both the company and the employees as well, because it’s a win-win situation.

Alex Jensen:  There might be a temptation, though, just to do it on your own to start up your own company. We’re going to be talking more about startups in just a moment, by the way. And we have done I think, quite a few interesting conversations in recent weeks on the subject, both positive and negative. Is it something that’s very tempting to you to be your own boss now?

Jem Kim: Ah, I guess so. I mean, we are seeing a lot of 40 somethings coming out breaking out on their own and starting their own company. But for me, I think I can make that choice only after very careful calculations about the kind of company I would want to create the kind of culture I want to shape. And also, of course, whether or not I’m ready for that new challenge. But yes, it is very tempting, I believe.

Alex Jensen:  Well, Jem Kim, I would love to say that you will be a regular part of our Koreabizcast journey, because your voice is always welcome here. I know that you’re going to have more interesting stories to tell about yourself. But you’ve got so many insights into the corporate world here in Korea. And we’ll look forward to next time. For now, thank you very much for being so candid about your own story.

Jem Kim: Thanks so much, Alex. And also, thanks for having me.

Alex Jensen:  On now to Marta Allina, Korea startup community catalyst and inclusivity based social entrepreneur Marta is great to have you with us too.

Marta Allina: Hi, Alex, nice to be here with you as well.

Alex Jensen:  I remember meeting you at plant in Itaewon, I’m happy to give them a shout out and I met you there months ago. And here we are interviewing you it’s a nice circle, we’ve come around.

Marta Allina: We have come around, haven’t we? and you know in a short amount of time at the end of the day, so it’s awesome to see what you’re doing and how things are going here?

Alex Jensen:  Yeah. And what really struck me when I met you was just won an abundance of energy with startup support.

Where are you coming from? in all of this? you’re originally from Poland, right?

Marta Allina: I am, indeed. I’m originally from Poland. But I have one where if you put it all together, I have spent about half of my life here in Korea. I originally, I first came to Korea, back in the 90s, with my parents and then I came back as a young adult, did my graduate school here was supposed to be here, Max two years, and here I am. What, almost 13 years later, working on the startup scene, I’ve gone through working for Samsung Electronics I worked for, I worked as a bartender after I left the corporate world. And then I transitioned into the startup scene working for accelerators, VCs, startups, as well. And somewhere along the way, I became a community and ecosystem builder.

Alex Jensen:  Basically, an ultimate connector. It seems like to me anyway.

Marta Allina: Yes. Yes.

Alex Jensen:  What was it about startups that made you particularly want to get involved in that area, though?

Marta Allina: Ah, two things. One thing is I had just come out of the corporate, very corporate, very conservative and traditional Korean corporate world. And the startup world struck me as something fun, exciting, full of young people, where you could really be yourself and show up to work not as a teddy or responsible for ABC, but as yourself as a person that can wear a lot of hats in the same job. And also, there were a lot of exciting things happening on the tech scene, new technologies, new innovations, new disruptions and that just made me so excited about it because I had been working in the telco industry before that, which is, it’s disruptive, but in a different way. Let’s put it that way.

Alex Jensen:  It’s really interesting, though, to hear you talk about the corporate work environment. That’s exactly some of what we just touched on with Jem Kim before and explains why so many people are seeking something different, of course, corporate life suits some employees perfectly, but not everybody. But for you now, what are you particularly working on? And what are the problems that you’d most like really to see addressed right now?

Marta Allina: Oh, I wear a lot of hats. Like I said, but I’m working especially my child project is Seoul Startups, which is the biggest international startup community here in Korea. And Seoul Startups was literally born in a bar where a couple of people working in startups some different functions. We were complaining that there’s not much of a community in the startup scene here in Korea, like all events, all networks. Well, there wasn’t much networking to begin with that that was the problem. Everything was kind of controlled, either by organizations like accelerators, or VCs, or was government run, which meant to put it mildly, it was not fun and exciting, and really limited people with connecting especially between the Korean startup ecosystem players and the foreigners that were trying to tap into the Korean startup scene. And so, four years ago, in a bar, we created that Slack channel. And lo and behold, four years later, it’s over 2,000 people and growing. And we try to kind of help people create, like, we want to create a safe place where people can connect exchange ideas, ask for advice, share their successes, but also share their failures, concerns, challenges, and find someone that can help them out. And even if it’s just to be a shoulder to cry on. We’ve been working on some exciting new services, including a community member directory, as well as a job board where people can look for jobs, suppose the jobs for their startups look for talent. And we have also been working with other ecosystem players here on the Korean startup scene but also abroad to bridge those differences and the walls between the various ecosystem players.

Alex Jensen:  Is there a particularly inspirational story that stands out if someone came to you in trouble, maybe on the verge of closure, like the closure story we heard just last Friday. Check that out. By the way, the search Koreabizcast by your podcast provider, you’ll be able to check out all of our past episodes. But Marta, is there someone who’s come to you, and they’ve turned it all around and you’re now seeing them succeed?

Marta Allina: Yes, we had people, we had startups literally born on Seoul Startups platform people coming up and saying, I have an idea for this ABC service, but I need someone with tech skills. And someone volunteered and showed up and low and behold, they’re currently actually an actual company with a proper approaching investor and slowly growing. So, it’s that thing that really the Korean startup scene needs that way of connecting between people like, not only between founders or between just people interested in the startup scene, but we also see people struggle in connecting with experts and mentors. Because in Korea, if you don’t know any, with someone, personally, then then how do you approach them, right? So, we kind of want to bring those people also on the platform, and we’ve seen more and more of them join and literally reach out and say, I want to do a workshop on, you know, whatever my area of expertise is. Or I’m the head of Global Alliance and LG. Tap me, and I’ll have a meeting with you guys at coffee. So, these little things, these little successes really do make my day.

Alex Jensen:  To put it bluntly, though, what’s the cost of getting help like that? And how do you provide it as a business service?

Marta Allina: Currently, Seoul Startups is free for everyone, all our services are for free. We are working on a premium model. But we do get support mostly from ecosystem players like us on foundation to support our infrastructure.

Alex Jensen:  That’s great to hear.

Marta Allina: Yeah, because I think they also see the need for that. And they cannot really address that on their own. They don’t have the resources to know how to do that. And they rather kind of delegate that to us and work with us to grow the community. And then also take advantage of it later on.

Alex Jensen:  I love this mentioned at the word community. It’s something we’re trying to build as well with Koreabizcast, and could you maybe just explain a little further the international component, though, to small startups, you yourself are international?

Marta Allina: But yes, so unlike, unlike what a lot of people misunderstand is, because when I say we’re in an international community, people think it’s just foreigners. But that’s not the case, I would say about half of our members are Korean. And that’s the whole point. It’s a way of connecting people, anybody from anywhere around the world who is interested in the Korean startup scene, who either is already doing something here or would like to, I don’t know, maybe find a job here or start a business here, expand their business here, can come and join and share, ask and offer.

Alex Jensen:  Well, that’s probably the most practical way to do when you’re operating in Korea, of course, but as this community leader, and someone who’s seen so many startups take off, as you just described, but also see those that are in trouble, what are some of the key points that you’d like to share some of the things that people must do, no matter what they’re trying to achieve?

Marta Allina: First of all, you’re gonna fail a lot of times on your journey. And that’s just part of your entrepreneur journey. Like, we have to think of failures, not as failures, but as things that will teach us to make a better product a better service. So that’s the first thing. The second thing is, please do take care of your mental health. Like in the recent years and months, I’ve seen so many struggling entrepreneurs, depression, and even more serious things and that and it’s just so important to take a moment, take a step back. And first take care of yourself, because if you don’t take care of yourself, you won’t have, you won’t have the energy and the power to succeed with your company. And guess the third thing that I would like to kind of recommend is any ways you have of networking, connecting with people talking to people do so. I know it’s hard in the COVID times when you have to do it online. Believe me, I’m the first person who wants to go back to offline events. But there are so many tools right now and so many platforms where you can connect with people online and with people with great expertise and knowledge. That is just a matter of trying and taking advantage of that and you can certainly find some very interesting people who will help you out on your journey, both here in Korea and around the world.

Alex Jensen:  Some great advice there. And speaking of taking care of yourself, I know that taking care of your strength, your physical strength is very important to you and your videos on strength training have been getting pretty well known. What is it about that side of your life that you enjoy so much? And how does it interweave with your professional life?

Marta Allina: It does. So yeah, I do. I’m a CrossFitter. I do CrossFit. And I do occasionally post videos of myself, mostly weightlifting. And it’s this, that’s my way of taking care of my mental health, I have to have that two hour in the day where I go to the box, and I don’t think about anything else, other than the physical exercise ahead of me. And if that’s something that works for you, that’s great. There are other ways you can meditate, do yoga, go for a run, go for a walk, play video games, that’s also a great way of kind of tuning down. Anything that you can do every day and kind of help yourself, get a little bit of distance from your work. That’s awesome.

Alex Jensen:  You’re touching on so many of the themes, almost summarizing some of the best advice that we’ve had over the last few weeks, Marta, and it’s great to hear it. I’d like to finish by just checking how we can find you if we’ve got a specific problem. For example, last week, we heard about a startup that closed down because of excessive regulations, there could be any number of problems that people are having, how would they connect with you and try to solve them?

Marta Allina: So first of all, you can definitely find me on Seoul Startups. So, go to seoulstartups.com. And I am very active there, obviously. So, you can drop questions, drop me a message or drop questions to the community. And if I don’t answer right away, then someone certainly will. And you can also find me on LinkedIn, drop me a message that there I love chatting with people, but we can schedule an online coffee and you know, see what’s up and what did I can help you with.

Alex Jensen: Marta Allina, it’s been great to have you with us. Thank you so much.

Marta Allina: Thank you, Alex. It’s been great. Thank you so much.

Alex Jensen:  And let me also say thanks again to Jem Kim, who was with us before and wish her all the best with her next career steps. And to you too if you’ve joined the great resignation, or perhaps I think you have a startup it’s been great spending today’s episode with you on Koreabizcast with the KBLA. See you again tomorrow from 7am Korea time.