Alex Jensen: It’s Monday, December 13^th. You’re listening to Koreabizcast with the KBLA. I’m your host Alex Jensen, and today we’re going somewhere we’ve not been before in more than 50 episodes in counting, a school library and on the campus of Dulwich College Seoul, we’ll find out what connects one of their academic leaders with John Hong, Architect and now triple winner of the highly competitive International Region Award from the prestigious American Institute of Architecture, something that’s unprecedented here in Korea. And along the way, we’ll be asking about the spaces we all operate in, and what we can learn from a rethink. This episode is brought to you by Eastpoint Partners, offering an unparalleled Asia wide network of relationships with corporates, governments, and investors.

Alex Jensen: So, from a whiskey shop last week to now slightly more wholesome but no less innovative and inspiring setting perhaps even more so it is called the Inquiry Hub. It was designed by Seoul National University Professor John Hong and his team under the banner of Project Architecture at SNU. And I wanted to come here in person so that I could fully understand it. I’d seen some videos and read some articles recently because this place actually won a major award the prestigious American Institute of Architecture, International Regional Award at a ceremony in Dubai, United Arab Emirates. But here in Seoul, it’s a location that you might not expect after all that, especially in the context of some of the business interviews we’ve done lately, it’s very small people who are benefiting from this directly at Dulwich College, just south of the river across the Banpo Bridge if you’re coming from north part of Seoul. And here with me is John as well as Jane Smith, Head of Primary at Dulwich. So, it’s absolutely wonderful to connect with both of you here today.

John Hong: Well, thank you for having us.

Jane Smith: Good to meet you.

Alex Jensen: Jane, if I can just start with you the impact of having a place like this for those little ones that I just mentioned, what sort of age are we talking Exactly?

Jane Smith: 3-11 years old.

Alex Jensen: 3-11 years old, and they would come and see what I’m seeing now, which is multi levels, lots of colors front facing books because of the space optimization, nets that make this look a bit like a kids cafe or a tower. It’s certainly captivating. John, I know from the blurb that I read in advance that this is going for an urban feel. Can you better explain that for us?

John Hong: Well, it’s when kids walk around the city, they always have to be led by hand by their parents. So, we wanted a space where they could actually explore on their own and have their own sense of agency. So, the whole idea was this idea of interior urbanism, you don’t think about interiors as cities. But in this case, it is a kind of mini city, there’s a tower, there’s separate levels, there’s two stories, there is stair that go up and down. But all of which are accessible from kids without having to be led around. And oh, go head.

Alex Jensen: I was just gonna ask if you’ve ever done a project like that before with kids. So, what’s your own architecture story?

John Hong: I always want to do libraries actually, when I studied in undergraduate, when folks would ask me, “What do you want to do?”, I want to design a library. But I never got the chance to do that until I came to Korea, and won a small competition, invited competition to design a library at another school, kids library. And so maybe four, four years ago, I started designing children’s spaces. And that’s how Dulwich found me through these other libraries.

Alex Jensen: So that’s a great background to be able to draw on, Jane, what was the vision initially?

Jane Smith: Well, the vision initially was to have a massive net that went from one side of our library each of them to the other. And it was with that in mind that I went to researching on the Internet, and after a few clicks and checks actually found John’s name and passed it on to our ambassador at the time, did a bit of research and delighted to find that he was based in Seoul. And our remit to him was a highly usable space that sold books to young children, and also offered spaces that both individuals and small groups and classes could come in, be at home, research independently, and wouldn’t be dependent on teachers to guide them round and help them find the information they wanted.

Alex Jensen: Certainly looking at this I mentioned before, the kids cafe style and in the same way that you would let kids loose in a kids cafe and try to hide from falling children and the fun that ensues, I can easily imagine, you know, just letting them go and enjoy themselves here, there might be a lot of book cleaning up afterwards if it was my kids anyway, John, can I just get you to talk us through some of the main features that we’re seeing in a bit more detail and the thought process that went into them?

John Hong: Something that I wanted to instill in the kids is that they’re still young, and they might not have traveled that much. So, the idea of future memories which sounds like a contradiction, but basically, when they when they’re in this space, they can actually be able to understand libraries when they might travel to France or something like that. So, there’s things that are borrowed from all over the world. For instance, the area that you see on the back, I kind of took from the Weidner Libraries at Harvard. And there, you have these very low floors, and these multi levels and books sort of accessible through us, almost like you’re sneaking around, and you have to go into the small spaces. So, the back area where there’s the highest density of books, is where the books are stacked on top of each other, there’s a mezzanine just kind of a catwalk that goes across, the main feature is a tower. And this is reminiscent of a lot of medieval towers you might see in Europe, where there was more about defense, but you can’t from a tower, you can look around in many different directions. So, the same thing with this. There’s different vistas and different sizes of windows that looks all around. And so, you can interact with your peers that way. And then finally, in the bigger space, there’s an arched wall that goes up to the ceiling that holds the books. And so, the arch wall is borrowed from the New York Public Library, where you have this great reading room with these big arches that goes up.

Alex Jensen: And I saw your team being celebrated that there were several of them that worked on this, what was the flow like in terms of work? Did you say to them, “Right, this is the school’s vision, this is my vision?” What do you think? How does that work when you’re collaborating with younger designers at the university setting?

John Hong: We do a lot of study models and there’re physical models but they’re also digital models in the computer. And I sort of set up as a friendly competition, we had three of my students, grad students working on this. And we and of course, I have what I want to do, but I don’t tell them that. And so, on a we can, we just do a shred. It’s called a shred, when you just sort of do a very quick but intense study, and they all come up with their own ideas, and we look at them, and then we evaluate them, we discussed them for hours, actually, the discussion takes longer than the actual the shred process itself. And whether we take one and run with it, or we mash them all together, is up to the way the discussion goes, but also, they are a part of the initial discussions where we heard from Jane and her team, what the library wanted. And there were very actually, they weren’t spatialized yet, but they’re actually very clear about how Jane and her team wanted that space to be so interactive. So, we had those guidelines and they’re a great starting place.

Alex Jensen: Let’s come back to you as well, Jane, on some of the practical benefits for the kids. So, in my own school history, we had quite an impressive library at my secondary school, for example. And I’d often go there to work. I don’t have any particularly rich memories of it being innovative though, and it was never that easy to find books. And then maybe university age, I remember studying for a dissertation, the British Library. And it was, Oh, I mean, it was just vast, but very special. I think I remember more about the library than what I was supposed to be researching, for you Jane that I mean, this is a smaller space, but I can definitely see how memories would be created here. Is it though, can you elaborate a little bit further on this idea of inquiry because I think just looking at this the whole concept of going to the library changes when you’re looking at this space?

Jane Smith: I think there’s two aspects to it. The first being that we want the library to be a little bit like a buffet, particularly for children between 3 and 11 years this is their chance to read different types of books, look at different illustrators and just investigate and explore different genre without get it feeling that the mustard here or stick to the classics, for example. So, we want to make sure in here that we have a vast array of literature. We have books from Australia, New Zealand and America and the UK, of course. So, there’s that aspect of investigating different literature. But then there’s also the idea of investigating ideas and they may come directly from the books that the children are reading, or it may come from classwork that the children then bring into these spaces. And then we’re providing opportunities and spaces for them to work individually or to have a discussion partner to work in a small group, or in this sort of area that we’re sitting in just now, an area for research to be presented and ideas to be shared across the group. So, we wanted to provide both a place where we could display and offer different books to kids, but also a place where they could naturally come into and share their ideas with others and learn from others, then that’s why it’s called the Inquiry Hub, we’re coming in here to inquire and to share and to collaborate.

Alex Jensen: And I’m looking at these front facing books and can imagine a lot of the younger children being captivated by them, they probably go straight up onto the netting like they would in a kids Cafe, and then, “Oh, look at this”. And then you’ve got the other books that are placed in the traditional library format, are they for older kids, or just different?

Jane Smith: They’re just a little bit different, I think, you know, one of the joys about this library is being able to have the books as the display gonna the days of us needing to put up a library display of materials or pictures, because actually, the books are selling themselves by being outward facing. So, it’s, what’s wonderful is the revolving art if you like, and the artists, the front covers of the books.

Alex Jensen: Yeah, I love the company of books, by the way, in this kindle age where we’re all accessing information like this digitally, it’s nice to actually be in a library again, it’s been a while for me, even the library at city hall that closed for a while during the pandemic. I’ve got to check that out again. Jane, from a school differentiation standpoint though, you know, I’m conscious of the fact that people listening to this, they might, for example, thinking about their children going to a school like this. And there might be businesses who be thinking about applying these principles to adults, not necessarily a library, but applying architecture principles to adults. And maybe we can explore that with John again in a moment. But for you, Jane, I’m not trying to force you into a sales pitch. But how does a library like this help attract you think parents who might be split between two schools and wondering if this is the right place for them?

Jane Smith: I think a library like this epitomizes what our school is about. And it’s about opportunity, and it’s about collaboration. And I think walking into this library, you very much get the science sense that students in our school come first. These are students sighs spaces and that’s really important that a moment a child walks into our school and into our library. They know that what we’re doing is for them, and I think this library epitomizes that.

Alex Jensen: For you personally, Jane, on this podcast, we often hear people’s background stories to what is your journey that’s led you here, and what’s the context of you recognizing this library of something special compared with what you’ve maybe seen before?

Jane Smith: Well, my library is a child where I went on a weekly basis with my mother was actually a Victorian structure with rows of books and you mustn’t talk, and you would be shushed by the librarian. And while I got the books I wanted, it wasn’t the joyful experience, perhaps you would have wanted while in the building. And I’ve essentially tried to turn that on its head and make sure that children see not just the books in the library being useful and exciting but the space as well where they can collaborate, and they can talk as much as they like.

Alex Jensen: John, for you personally, then, as I said before, you’ve taken a lot of interest in school library architecture, what were you doing before that?

John Hong: Mainly designing spaces for art, also, residential buildings and actually, I did design a daycare center for a large pharmaceutical company.

Alex Jensen: Okay, so that would be for employees to take their younger children?

John Hong: That’s right. Yes, yes.

Alex Jensen: And if someone said to you, and you were open to the idea. Yeah, okay, SNU Project Architecture, I love this idea of turning convention on its head, and I would like to create a place for my employees to have some R&R during their busy days or I would like to have a place where people can eat or I don’t know, whatever it may be that we normally do in a set way. And they had the space for this. Do you think there are a lot of options for people to rethink the office environment even?

John Hong: Yes, definitely. One of the things has to do with work and our posture at work. And there’s been so many studies that reveal just sitting at your desk is really bad for you, you know, and you have all kinds of things happening carpal tunnel syndrome, back backs, all this stuff. And so, if you look around the library, of course, there’s places to sit, there’s chairs, but there’s not that many. There are other kinds of places like these steps that we’re sitting on that are more like a landscape and you can lie down on them. You see kids actually lying down on the flat areas, the hammock, of course, you can lie down on it. And the carpet, it makes it kind of a soft area where you can just sit down or lie down very quickly. So, I think our workspaces, we have to get away from the idea of production, you know, we’re there, it’s kind of Fordist model, we’re there. And we’re going to work all day, I think we have to really think about the way our posture is also a kind of cultural and social phenomenon which we should be able to work lounging on the steps or even lying down or even taking a quick nap, why not at work, that would be nice.

Alex Jensen: I sometimes fantasize about it, you know, in the office, the idea of just having a mattress next to my desk, for example. The other thing that I wanted to talk to you about is the nature of this award itself, and how you go about winning it. But perhaps even getting to that stage requires a bit more explanation as to why this is so prestigious, let’s just presume everybody listening recognizes that this is a great award to win, but doesn’t know the world of architecture awards. Can you tell us a bit more about how difficult it is to win this?

John Hong: And so, the American Institute of Architects is sort of the largest instance, professional institute of architects in the world. Because there’s a lot of architects in America, and it is segmented into different categories, and there’s the International Region, the International Region is the largest geographically, there’s 140 countries, and there’s around 2,400 members, and they’re all competing to get this award. Because it’s International, the award 90%, 99% of the time goes to very large firms because the American firms that are competing are large corporations and they’re building cities are the building high rises. So, it’s very rare for a library of this scale project of this scale to win an award because we’re competing against 300 people firms with this. So that’s why, you know, I want to stay a little bit modest there, I heard there weren’t that many, as many applicants this year because of the pandemic because there were things not getting built, you know, but on the other hand, it really is a privilege that they’re recognizing design that has embedded within it new qualities of learning and a new social principles, rather than, you know, something that is aesthetically beautiful or grand or something like this. They’re looking at actually the content rather than just the form.

Alex Jensen: Actually, that makes another question come to mind for you, Jane, this idea of building during the pandemic, was it actually something that worked in your favor, while some people might say, Okay, this is a bad time to be doing anything. For you, there was a period of time where people were having to study from home was that an opportunity to work on the library, for example?

Jane Smith: Not so much, and that we were always hopeful that we would have children back on campus as soon as possible. So, the plan was, and the plan that was executed was that all the work could be done during the summer holidays when the school was planned to be closed anyway. But I guess with children of campus, we did have a little bit more mental capacity to think about what we really needed, and what we want what kind of library wanted our children coming back to, particularly after a period of perhaps isolation for some, and that lack of opportunity for collaboration or new library really needed to fulfill that need.

Alex Jensen: And I mean, just this talk of the pandemic, I don’t want to put either of you on the spot with this. But for me, personally, I just have so much uncertainty around it, for example, I’m going to the UK for Christmas I think, I kind of feel like I believe it when I’m on the plane, and it’s taken off. And I know that a lot of the teachers who are you know, their homeland is abroad and a lot the parents and the kids here, they’ll also be taking off. And then there’ll be hoping to resume school again in the new year. But we’ve seen an unprecedented level of cases for Korea, and the news is just constantly pumping it out. I mean, I don’t want you to speak on behalf of the school, Jane, because I know that in this kind of setting, you know, it can be very sensitive. But for you personally, how do you go through day to day just keeping yourself mentally focused on the job with that level of uncertainty hovering over you?

Jane Smith: I think schools are naturally optimistic places and I think people who work with young children can’t help but be optimistic because those young children are living in the moment and that’s contagious if you excuse the pun. So, we’re always looking for ways not necessarily to fix the longer term with the pandemic. That’s way out of our control. But we can use opportunities in school to give kids a good day and a good week and set them up with some resilience for whatever might come. We hope that what comes is rolled back and school fingers crossed, but if not, we’re prepared to give them a good experience online.

Alex Jensen: And just to finish on a, on that particular hopeful note, John, it does seem like kids have a lot to teach us. It might sound cliche, but I’ve been inspired by my own kids their resilience, actually. And I’m sure if you’re designing school facilities, and you’re putting that level of thought into what’s going to inspire kids, and you kind of getting into their minds, there’s a certain innocence and living in the moment as Jane was just describing is that something that really makes you feel even more positive about your work and drives you on, perhaps?

John Hong: Definitely. And one thing to design these spaces, you have to put your shoes back to being a kid and observe kids. And we also forget how to be kids. So, I think one of the most inspiring things about designing children’s spaces is you have to become a kid to design them, there’s no way around it. And so, it really is a mind refresher to be able to do work on a project like this.

Alex Jensen: So, I think that’s one major takeaway for all of us think like a child again or bring that child out. And also, to think about the spaces we’re working and hopefully continuing to learn in, I might go and have a lay down on this net now. And we are going to have photos going up on this experience. So, if you’re listening to this, and you’re thinking, I want to have a look at this. Just go to for example, LinkedIn and search KBLA, and we’ll be sharing some of the photos that are there, and we can link to some of the Dulwich College videos and other things whatever were provided, really, that can help share this experience, so you get a better idea of what we’re talking about and why we’re talking about it because it really is something very different. Jane, thank you very much to you a Head of Primary, Jane Smith.

Jane Smith: Thank you very much indeed.

Alex Jensen: And John Hong of Seoul National University’s, Project Architecture. Thank you and congratulations again on your award.

John Hong: It was a privilege. Thank you.

Alex Jensen: Remember to check out our LinkedIn just search KBLA, if you want to see more for yourself but also to check out our many other posts there. Plus, let me again thank Eastpoint Partners for making today’s episode possible. Have a great week and see you again tomorrow.