Alex Jenson 0:08
You’re listening to koreabizcast with the KBLA. I’m your host Alex Jensen on this Thursday, March 24. And let me just start by thanking for making today’s episode possible Innovation Center Denmark, Seoul, which seeks to create innovation and business opportunities and build up relations between Korean and Danish r&d intensive companies, research institutes and universities. Now, earlier this week, you may have seen that I had the pleasure of moderating an event with panelists from Barun Law and George Mason University, Korea. It was great by the way to be involved in an actual offline KTLA event for the first time having waited through this pandemic, and to do so at the Four Seasons Hotel Seoul, one of our sponsors, the company that’s really been on board right from the beginning. So it really fused together a few of our koreabizcast interests. But also it was great to meet today’s guests there. Richard Wilson is a director at Epiq, the global leader in technology enabled legal services, corporate restructuring, cybersecurity and business transformation solutions. So they work with law firms, enterprises, financial institutions, and government agencies. And we’re going to have to put our hats on today for some pretty complex issues. If that’s possible. Richard, thanks for joining the podcast.

Richard Wilson 1:28
Yes. Hi, Alex. Thanks for inviting me along, happy to join today.

Alex Jenson 1:31
And we actually dealt with some, I think, pretty heavyweight topics in the areas of conflict and dispute resolution earlier this week. So anyone who checked that out, this shouldn’t be too taxing. But I I’m just saying that as a forewarning that we kind of want to put this in language as accessible as possible. And I guess we can start with your story, because that’s something many of us will be able to relate to you landed here in Korea in 2004, when Korea was a completely different place, almost. And you arrived from New Zealand, which is almost on the other side of the world. So tell us a bit more about that journey.

Richard Wilson 2:09
Sure thing. So growing up in New Zealand, quite young, I was fascinated by things in East Asian culture and language, that sort of thing and grew up with a desire to know more about initially, China and then I became a formal full fully with Korea had a lot of Korean friends, you know, earnestly plugging me to learn Korean and I’m very much glad I did study Korean and a BA in New Zealand, and then law. And after about three years practice, I came to Korea and just wanted to sort of, you know, pick up part of the pie in terms of larger transactions and interesting types of work in a different setting. And it’s been great. I’ve never looked back. So yeah, it’s great to be in Korea.

Alex Jenson 2:53
You just mentioned there, you learned Korean, and you’re now fluent, aren’t you? As well as you speak Mandarin? Just created through that process? Because mastering one of those is hard enough. But to do both, how did you do it?

Richard Wilson 3:06
It was quite a challenge. I think, at the time, I thought it was half out of my mind trying to perhaps enroll in both programs. So it’s already in the Mandarin program. And then an enrolled in several other courses to get into the Korean program as well, a little bit late and friends really helped me add Korean friends that really helped me to learn the writing, you know, the Hangeul. And so what I found, I guess, is that I put the language somewhat side by side in terms of vocabulary, because they both somewhat informed each other, you know, there’s a lot of similarities in the vocab, perhaps slight difference in pronunciation, obviously. But that’s really how it had to do it. So I put all my classes in, in the, in the BA program, you know, try to send, sort of focus them around the language day by day. So I’d say for example, on Monday, it was mostly Korean classes and studied Korean and then on the Tuesday, it was the Chinese and ultimately like that, so and had a lot of exchange, you know, classes with friends as well, you know, students in the unit to help them with English, and then they helped me with the language. So that helped massively.

Alex Jenson 4:11
And which university was that?

Richard Wilson 4:14
This was an Auckland University, the University of Auckland, in New Zealand.

Alex Jenson 4:17
And with that educational background, you made the move to Korea when you first came here. Did you have any idea that you’d be still here nearly two decades later? And counting?

Richard Wilson 4:30
Probably not actually. No, I thought I thought I was just sort of testing the water at the time and wasn’t sure you know, couldn’t imagine how long it remain. So I didn’t actually during this studying while studying Korean come over a few times for three months on the school holidays in the university vacation time. But even at that time, I didn’t envisage coming and living here so but now it’s just like home really sort of like look, you know, it’s like home and more so than perhaps New Zealand

Alex Jenson 4:59
As a sort cultural question. I’m curious, because I’ve been here now more than 10 years, I have sort of reached the conclusion though, that Korea is never going to fully embrace me as as as a Korean and I don’t expect it to happen, either. I’m not sure if I even mind that. But for you, who’s been here even longer, and you know, it feels like home to you, is there a problem there for you that it’s still fairly homogeneous. And there’s still this conversation about multiculturalism, which kind of gets kicked down the road?

Richard Wilson 5:30
A bit I sense it from time to time, mostly, you know, there’s this, you know, you know, the usual question how long you’ve been here, you’re Korean, you know, a lot of Koreans will say that a lot most of the time. And they’re very sort of welcoming, and that but yeah, there’s this obviously, this very clear sense of perhaps, whether it’s the Hanminjok identity system, or, or just a longer path of, you know, having lots of, you know, attacks and invasions and things from other countries in the region, and then having this very strong sense of identity internally, obviously, stronger sensitivity identity than New Zealand. You know, New Zealanders New Zealand itself, as a country doesn’t have really that strong sense of identity, or even though we have the Maori ethnicity in New Zealand, and there’s a very strong culture there, New Zealand itself probably does still lack much of an identity that Korea has is very strong with.

Alex Jenson 6:31
By the way, I want to add the caveat that what you said also rings really true. There’s plenty of Koreans who have said to me, Oh, you’re like Korean, or, or, you know, you know more about this or something like that, then many Koreans and I do really appreciate that the warmth and the love that I’ve received and I’m really just talking about overall at cultural and government level that there’s still this conversation about foreigners, which makes multiculturalism look rather young should I say. Getting coming back to this issue of New Zealand? Let me also ask you, do you think that kiwis and New Zealand kind of punch above their weight in Korea? And and if so, why would that be?

Richard Wilson 7:15
It’s a good question. Yeah, I guess so. Perhaps, I mean, as a Kiwi, I can only say, you know, I can pump that line. But I do seem to find that in comparison to our population, which is only, you know, around 5 million, or at the time when it comes only about 4.5 or some million. But in comparison, yeah, I’d say there’s a lot of Kiwis in certain roles. I’ve seen them here when I came in fairly senior management positions. I guess fairly articulate and ambitious compared to what I thought of even New Zealand when I was there. Yeah, I’m somewhat impressed. I guess if I’m good say so myself. I’m not sure what it is.

Alex Jenson 8:00
I’ve had a lot of encounters with people from New Zealand as well as Australia, and, and always positive experiences. So far, at least. And this isn’t even the first time we’ve interviewed New Zealand on this podcast. So must be something that’s going right there. But let’s go even closer to your own background with your legal career. So your first job here in Korea, I understand it was with an IP firm, how did that come about?

Richard Wilson 8:26
Right. So it was a patent firm and quite common. It was quite interesting, you know, exposed to filing for patents and trademarks. And the bulk of the clients were actually overseas at inbound matters, requests from large companies, household names, BMW and Avon, and all the you know, brands sort of came across and affiliate everybody a team of experts in different areas in various sciences and engineering and other areas. So it was very interesting to be exposed to those various disciplines. And all in clustered around registering and protecting intellectual property. So it was a good thing and quite different from what I’d been doing in New Zealand.

Alex Jenson 9:09
And with that background that we were talking about before, was it easy or hard to get that job? What’s your New Zealand identity, for example, an advantage was the fact that you were speaking and writing Korean a big plus when you went for that job.

Richard Wilson 9:26
I think the Korean language element was quite important. A lot of work was was reviewing, you know, draft in English and helping translating from Korean to English as well. And a lot of the people I was working with both staff and patent attorneys often preferred and would generally mostly only speak in Korean. So that was probably one of the parts to getting the role, as well as some through an acquaintance who was was leaving the position and going back to the US. I think though Yeah, like you say by being in Korea and as a New Zealand qualified solicitor and now Australian qualified as well, there’s still a sort of sense that US qualified attorneys are far more in demand and looked up to and you know, regarded in their, in this, their work and are used far more readily in companies here as well as in, in law firms, I guess, especially the larger firms. To me that it’s a good question, though.

Alex Jenson 10:29
Well, obviously, you’re helping to push back against that stereotype. And then you really hear yeah, and then and then you move forward to Hyundai Heavy, as in house counsel, that’s a huge table type environment. Was it very, very different for you? And and how did it go?

Richard Wilson 10:48
Very much different. Yeah. The whole thrust there was of you know, being heavy industries company a lot more in the way of engineering people and, you know, focused around the, the industry itself that different vibe. Hyundai itself has sort of got us station, especially in these, these heavy industry aspects, these companies, you know, it’s like, work hard drink hard. That kind of thing. And it’s certainly much true. A lot of rigor and drive. And in the daily work process, yeah, a slightly different angle, I think, some from what we found an IP and again, practice in New Zealand,

Alex Jenson 11:28
Was that the type of job again, that you were particularly hired because of your own diversity or background? Or was it the sort of job that any Korean could have done potentially with the right qualifications as well?

Richard Wilson 11:43
Right. So the particular role was in house counsel for international matters. And these large corporations here, the Chaebol, do recruit a lot of Kyopo, you know, overseas Koreans that have American Koreans, British Koreans and the like. So it could have been, you know, Kyopo or myself that could have taken the role. At the time, they were looking for some people that was substantially sort of over overseas based and had, you know, come into Korea and had that sort of outward and inward facing, sort of angle to the work that they were doing. So liaising with a lot of time, it was, you know, attorneys, and barristers in London, for sort of litigation and things like that, as well as contract review. It’s another good question and a large amount of the corporations now have in house attorneys that are more so overseas Korean, you know, returning maybe Kyopo and those sort of people perhaps for the sort of fit with the culture, the in house culture, the corporate culture?

Alex Jenson 12:54
Well, the next phase of your career kind of seems to move in a more international direction, despite also still being based in Korea with Deloitte, and a now epic. Is that a true characterization? And was it deliberate?

Richard Wilson 13:09
Years, pretty much, I was interested to sort of be in an environment, which was both sort of globally oriented, aligned, and then but in Korea at the same time, and the same with pretty much with Epiq, that’s for sure. Epiq is a global organization has about 7,000 employees, and it’s been around for about three years. In Korea, it’s still, you know, sort of starting off, it’s been around for about four years now, but has a very much a global strength as well as an aim to sort of align with Korean needs and the local way of doing business.

Alex Jenson 13:49
What’s the problem then, that Epiq particularly tries to solve, or the set of problems that you especially specialize in? There’s a lot of technology that comes along with this when I look at the services related to AI and cybersecurity types of issues that come up in the news a lot, but you don’t necessarily think of with all the small print and quite legal, heavy jargon that you presumably also have to take on.

Richard Wilson 14:17
Right here, sort of sort of top down simple overview. It’s all about transforming the way that legal services are performed as well as delivered. So if you look at a lot of legal work that you can imagine, is largely routine requires legal skill, but can be done perhaps a lot more efficiently. And that is the main thrust of what Epiq is about. And as you mentioned, that there’s also a cybersecurity aspect we we support, functions and large corporations and law firms as well to achieve cybersecurity safer. IT operations internally and externally as well. In terms of managing data and protecting their external facing and inbound communications,

Alex Jenson 15:06
I’m immediately drawn to the cybersecurity issue because it’s something that perhaps I’m more familiar with then some of those very law heavy topics that I recently saw in the news, actually this topic of cybersecurity at government level here in Korea, because they were concerned during the government transition that some of the documents of the incoming administration of Yoon Sukyeol might be vulnerable. How challenging is it today, from your perspective to guarantee the security of those types of very high value documentation that an entity, an organization, a government agency might even come to you with?

Richard Wilson 15:46
It’s a very large challenge, understandably, it requires expertise and specialty, as well as technology. And the other aspect is, you know, what we call insider risk. So anybody in an organization as well, as much as they want their organization to be secure and safe, and you know, it’s data along with us data, there is a massive risk that anyone that’s accessing and using systems can make mistakes. You know, we’re all too familiar with the phishing type exercises, where external experts or you know, hackers are trying to send messages through various channels, text messages, emails, and various other ways. And if people are, you know, going to click on on an email that’s not secure from an unsafe source, then obviously, it comes down to any chain as as as strong as its weakest link. And so there is the big challenge, actually, the insider risk is the biggest one.

Alex Jenson 16:44
Well, we know that North Korea has been actually targeting government organizations and private companies with exactly those tactics, and around the world for several years. But here in South Korea, obviously, always going to be a target. And this is once more the issue with this transition of government. I don’t know how overblown it is, though, for you on a day to day basis is something like North Korea, a factor that plays into your mind, are you not thinking so much about the perpetrators are more thinking about the defensive side?

Richard Wilson 17:17
Correct, it’s more about the defensive side, there are characteristics with various perpetrators. But overall, it’s really about hardening systems, and increasing awareness insides, you know, for this insider risk aspect, so that everyone is sort of aware of what they can do to sort of avoid weakening from the inside as well. We have a right. Epiq has a range of technologies that help to manage the risk to classify data and then to ensure that that data is not leaked accidentally. In other cases where, say, in a rush to get a report to somebody, even an in house within the company, or firm or even government agency, that can be rushed to get that document across after working on, you know, up till deadline or something or past and then sending it to the wrong person. So we have, for example, AI enabled technology that enables that various documents are classified, and then cannot be sent out without the special approval of the person in charge of that particular document or series of documents. As, as one example,

Alex Jenson 18:29
It’s interesting to me that when you first arrived in Korea in 2004, all this would have been completely unknown to you the concepts like using AI on the job, for example, and adapting to this kind of tech, what is it about your interest you think that have allowed you to take on a variety of themes to evolve in your career, and now to find yourself in an area where you’re still drawing on your original passions of the law, but, but also very much tech driven as well?

Richard Wilson 18:59
Yeah. When even when, as a high school, I was, you know, fascinated with computers and saved up, you know, worked hard to get my own one and just love the idea of the area, and sort of grew up a bit with that. But back in law, I saw, you know, bits and pieces of tech here and there. We all use emails and all these things. But for about three and a half years, I was actually in London, on submit related work in this area. It’s called ediscovery. And that’s sort of the underpinnings of making litigation more efficient, disclosing, you know, necessary documents in a case. And during that work, there was a lot of obviously a lot of monotony, repetitive reviewing of very similar documents. So now, we use what’s called Tech Assisted Review. devices that enable all platforms to enable reviewing of documents far more efficiently, initially to removing you know, duplicates, which is the biggest one of the biggest problems and wasting the time of lawyers to review as well as to track across documents through conceptual searches, not just keyword searches, which we use on Google. And these, these platforms are quite complicated, but not complicated for people to drive. So one of the concerns about AI going just sort of looping back a little bit as AI, it’s taking over, you know, it’s taking everyone’s job. But AI and including in this area requires humans to drive it or it’s going to be driven by, you know, inquisitive, skilled human minds. So that, in itself is actually quite encouraging. But also, the aim is, and the mandate that we have Epiq is to actually save people money. And time, if we’re not doing that, we’re not doing our job. So in deploying this technology, at very low and inefficient rates, we’re also able to save tremendous amounts of time. Just one quick example, if you can imagine having seen a case where you have litigation on investigation, you’ve got to say about a million documents, which is sort of a very middle of the road, perhaps a low number, these days, we can apply our tech to remove the duplicates, and also to search on the actual conceptually related documents, and eliminate up to 600,000 or 700,000 documents, for example, out of that dataset of a million, and then apply sort of train searches from people reviewing across all the rest of the documents as well to, you know, to sort of classify what’s relevant. And that can save anywhere from, you know, from a usual six month time period of review, very high costs, down to, you know, a month or two, even a few weeks of a review. So there’s an example of some of the costs of time and time and costs can be reduced.

Alex Jenson 21:57
Yeah, that’s really interesting to hear that particular example. And if we broaden it out, just to look ahead, can you imagine, say 10 years now, how various workplaces in Korea and beyond are going to look, both with the development of AI and other technologies like blockchain and, and the whole FinTech world, everything seems to be evolving so fast now that even one year to the next is transforming. So a decade from now, perhaps you’ll still be in Epiq, maybe it’ll be somewhere else, how different you think that that world will look, based on the tech that you’re using now.

Richard Wilson 22:32
it could be vastly different. In terms of the, for example, I mean, the way this tech interfaces with existing technology, Microsoft and other specialized technologies that law firms will be using. This will probably become more of a sort of a seamless merger of technology of IT, both hardware and software. So that went the way data is created and managed will be extremely different. Even right now, one of our mandates is to help companies to, to put a lid on how much data is being generated in terms of duplicates, and everything. Because a lot of that data is actually stored and understood right. So even taking that point there, the way data will be generated will be different. There’ll be ways to sort of to reduce the exponential explosion of data. And so that it can be kept within certain bounds and managed much more efficiently. Also, I mean, we used to looking at screens and programs that are sort of fairly bounded by their outline and what the software is, and what that is. It’s not likely that the it’ll be quite as broken up anymore. And in the future, there’ll be just flows of data and information. And with the with just the key levels of interfacing with that information, so we know what it is. And, yeah, we’ll certainly be rather different. Perhaps, the fear is that, you know, again, it’s, it’s replacing humans, but a lot of this is driven by humans as necessary for humans. And also, there’s still a large amount of work in this, some of this actually generates new jobs. So there’ll be a sort of, obviously a shift in the types of work. But still, there’ll be a dimension, still large number of jobs in the sort of this new space, requires it and driving it through AI.

Alex Jenson 24:27
Well, Richard, you’ve certainly inspired me to look a little closer and to better prepare in whatever ways we all can. Richard Wilson, thank you so much. Good luck with all your ongoing work at Epiq as well.

Richard Wilson 24:39
Well, thank you very much, Alex. It’s been a pleasure to talk today and looking forward to keeping in touch. Yes, thank you.

Alex Jenson 24:44
Absolutely. And let me also thank today’s sponsor, once again, Innovation Center, Denmark, Seoul. It’s been a pleasure having everybody on board listening. If you want to get in touch with us directly find us on LinkedIn search, KBLA or email info@kbla.net See you again tomorrow.