Alex Jenson 0:08
You’re listening to koreapodcast with the KBLA I’m your host Alex Jensen on this Friday, April 8. Let me first thank for making today’s episode possible innovation centered Denmark Seoul, which seeks to create innovation and business opportunities and build up relations between Korean and Danish r&d intensive companies, research institutes and universities. Now, today and Monday, we’re going to do something a bit different. As we celebrate our 99th and 100th episodes. It’s been a fantastic journey looking back. And in the spirit of reflection, we’re now going to connect with a longtime career resident, whose family’s been here through the highs and lows some of the most turbulent times imaginable. Perhaps, given Korea’s modern history, Peter Underwood, managing partner of IRC consulting, thank you very much for being with us today.

Peter Underwood 0:58
It’s my pleasure, happy to be here.

Alex Jenson 1:00
A lot of us may ponder the question, how long should I stay in Korea for? We might think, should I have kids in Korea, but very few of us would think forward to our grandchildren in Korea, if we’ve come here from abroad, and very, very few of us would think of great grandchildren, the Underwood legacy is quite remarkable in this regard. There are very few foreign families who have done, what they’ve done, what you’ve done. Can you just briefly take us through your family tree for those who are not familiar?

Peter Underwood 1:31
Sure, I’d be happy to. But first a comment. I think that I’ve met many, many people that have come to Korea for two or three years and, and seem to be here for a generation or more. So I’m not sure our story is all that unique. It’s just that we started a little bit earlier. My great grandfather came to Korea as a missionary in 1885. In fact, that was April 5. So we’ve just crossed that magic number. And we’ve basically don’t know where else to go. And we’re still here. My grandfather was born in Korea, my good my parents, both my parents were born in Korea. I consider Seoul my home, I am Seoul Saram as they say. And when you put all the bits and pieces of my life together, I’ve been here well over 50 years. So yeah, our family has been here for 130 some odd years. And this is home. Thank you.

Alex Jenson 2:25
It’s interesting, because I’ve often said to people, if I ended up staying Korea forever, I’m not sure whether I’ll ever feel fully Korean or ever fully accepted in Korea. But when you talk about it as home like that, maybe it gives me and my own descendants hope, what what are the challenges, the obstacles that exist in that cultural acceptance, and the ways of overcoming them in your view?

Peter Underwood 2:49
Well, in fact, I think you’re correct, I don’t think that there will be total acceptance, until Korea has some significant changes, you know, it’s a very homogeneous country, we look different. And even if you speak the language, never fully integrate into society. That doesn’t mean that there you can’t be comfortable, you can’t enjoy yourself, you can’t be respected and appreciated. But But Korean, being Korean is ethnicity, it’s not nationality, and any more than then you can change your race. You cannot become Korean. So I think that that shouldn’t be your goal. I think your goal should be to, to contribute to benefit from and sort of integrated into society, but not to be Korean. So you need to, you need to put in a realistic perspective.

Alex Jenson 3:45
So it might then also come back to your own concept of nationhood because some people might feel inherently that they want to contribute most in their lifetime to their own nation. But it may be fair to say that you’ve contributed most to to Korea or at least to business in Korea, professionally speaking. And that’s something I’m sure that you’re proud of. But how do you deal with that idea that so much of your work has been done on what some would think of as foreign soil but for you is for generations in and as you said, feels like home?

Peter Underwood 4:20
Yeah, that concept of nationhood is interesting. My great grandfather was actually born in London emigrated to the United States, before he came to Korea for his entire professional life. My mother was actually a British citizen. My grandfather on my mother’s side, was a British businessman in Korea. My wife is an Australian. My daughter is Canadian. My grandson is Australian. I think that there’s a quite a and we’ve one country that we all have in common is Korea. And I think that there’s a common thread. It’s Korea. So I, I would say I have a much stronger cosmopolitan field than I do a feeling of nationhood. And if there is a nation that that I identify with the strongest is obviously Korea. I’ve been here. I’ve worked here I’ve lived here. And in a very small way contributed to the development of the country. So maybe I’m schizophrenic. I don’t know. But but that’s pretty much Korea is in Seoul is Seoul. Seoul is home.

Alex Jenson 5:30
What’s interesting to me having spent now 11, nearly 12 years in Seoul, is still the geography. Like when I fly back to England, I see the sprinkle of rain that seems to fall almost most of the time. And also the differences of the undulating hills rather than peak to mountains and, and lush green grass. It’s little things like that, that have taken a long time for me to adjust to in Korea, when when you look around, I mean, people aside, when you look around at the geography and you drive around the country, and you go to some of the haunts that you perhaps went to as a child, do you have that now built into that sense of comfort, the innate comfort that only is really possible with a place that feels like home?

Peter Underwood 6:17
But that’s a very astute observation. And the answer is absolutely, yes. When I go and visit my wife’s family in Australia, where it’s fairly reasonably flat, and I feel funny, because there’s no mountains, if it’s simple, and I don’t think you could be anywhere in Korea, where there aren’t any mountains. So yes, the topography the geography of Korea is very familiar to me, it’s very much home, and it gives me comfort and when the topography is different, I do feel a little bit strange. That’s a very interesting observation on your part. One I haven’t really thought very much about but but but very, very true.

Alex Jenson 6:58
And I think that the climate that we live in does affect us as well. Our personalities, whole cultures are affected by whether a country is hot or cold, for instance, and in Korea, we get all the extremes. How have you been shaped as a person? Both in professional terms and maybe in your own home life as well? By by growing up in Korea, do you think? And do you sense that it might have turned out completely different? Have you spent your whole upbringing in the US?

Peter Underwood 7:25
I’m sure that if I had grown up in a different environment, I would have many different attitudes for sure. Both both the topography culture, business wise, but I grew up in Korea, this is home. And I mean right now we’re in springtime, April in my opinion is the most beautiful month of the year. We’ve just endured a long, cold winter, where everything outside is quite drab and unaccessible. And suddenly, we have spring where everything is coming back to life. They’re beautiful, I mean looking at Magnolia and cherry blossoms now as we speak it’s a sense of rebirth and so on. And also the extremes are such that in winter you put away your shorts and T shirts and and you don’t need them and you can put them away in a back drawer and forget about it. In summer the opposite you put away your coats and gloves and and you don’t need to worry about it. I know that in many of you talk about England, I think that in the UK, very often in the middle of summer you need to pull out your woolies. So So yeah, there are different lifestyles, different attitudes, I suppose that are that are defined by the, by the weather by the climate by the by the season. So it’s again very interesting observation and and when I hadn’t thought much about but for sure. And and one of the reasons I like spring so much is because it’s it’s this life coming back all around you.

Alex Jenson 8:54
Yeah, good point on the clothes, by the way. Yeah, I’ve never had this concept of different wardrobes, as someone who’s not really much of a fashion Easter anyway, that that might not surprise people. But this idea in Korea that you need boxes to stick your warm clothes in for the summer. And then occasionally you’ll catch a glimpse of them in July. And you’ll think how on earth did I ever wear these clothes in this country? We do have the extremes. But let’s shift a little bit to your so called lost years. I’ve seen reference to it before in interviews that where you where you said you you lost your way somewhat before then embarking on what has become a very successful career. And I sense that there’s some hope there because lots of people especially after this pandemic era might feel like they’ve lost their way for whatever reason and and maybe you find your way again could help them.

Peter Underwood 9:47
Well, I mean, pretty much through University, I was on a pre programmed life journey. No, but I guess it was explicitly stated. But also, implicitly, you know, as I was growing up all of this, when you go to college, you will do this da da da. And so really, I wasn’t in a position probably was in a position, but I was on a pre, quote, programmed journey and therefore, didn’t make decisions about my own career, my own life and so forth, pretty much until I got out of university, and all I had in mind was I wanted to come back to Korea. And when I got back to Korea, and started looking for opportunities, you know, teaching English was was was very prominent, and you know, you could easily survive comfortably on that. But it wasn’t satisfying, it wasn’t enough. And I had been doing not only teaching at educational institutions, but also for companies that had language and other training programs for their staff. And, and I get more and more interested in the, in the business side of things. So after eight full years of, of teaching, coaching and training, I went back to the US and I got an MBA with a, with an eye to becoming a, an international business person here in Korea. And, and I kind of fell into consulting really, I saw this unique position of understanding Korea, and Korean culture, having a Western based education and understanding of Western values and so forth. And I was kind of a bridge between two, two cultures or two, you know, over a chasm, frankly, and in, in, in sorry about that, indirectly, I learned that, that that was the role of a consultant was to bridge the gap between between very divergent groups, and, and just, you know, fell into the, into the, into the job and, and I’ve loved it ever since, because I’m able to share with both sides, the values, the, the benefits, and the strengths of the other. And together by putting by putting them together, able to create value and create things that weren’t there to begin with. So yeah, it was very much following a course that had been laid out for me, and then taking control of my life and, and deciding this is what I want to do and, and actually made some sacrifices I was unemployed for about a year after, after graduate school because I was determined where I was going to go and what I was going to do, and I refuse to accept positions that were available that didn’t lead me in that direction. And then mind you, when I started consulting, I was already in my, in my early 30s. It was it was now or ever. And so I held out until I found the job I wanted and and I’ve been doing it now for 30 some odd years.

Alex Jenson 12:57
I think there is some inspiration in that. And we’ll revisit the IRC consulting part of this story in our next episode. If I may, though, for now, just sticking with you. And kind of leaping over that to where you are today. What are the aspects of Korea that that either fill you most with hope or fill you most with concern?

Peter Underwood 13:23
I suppose there are elements of both. The concern first, I mean, Korea is still a relatively homogeneous society. They talked about the frog in the well, the ways that things are done in Korea are done in Korea the Korean way, and they’re not necessarily similar to the way things are done elsewhere. There’s I mean, there’s all kinds of challenges in Korea. Again, assumptions and expectations of how people will live their life what the what the career path will be, you go to the right high school to get into the right university to get a job at a table or a government entity. And you know, have two or one and a half kids and and you know live in an apartment in Gangnam, you know, that, that that that the Korean Dream, so to speak, is pretty much laid out and and just as I drifted much of my life, I see many, many people just following that, that that formula, and not being happy. And if you look at all of the the surveys about happiness in Korea, unfortunately, Korea often ranks towards the bottom of those happiness scales. And I think that’s because people aren’t doing what they want to do, that they’re not self directed. They’re not living their dream. They haven’t identified what makes them happy, what accomplishments they want to achieve. So the those those are, I think the challenges or the The challenges that need to be overcome. And I guess on the positive side, I see that happening. More and more cases kid granted, it’s anecdotal, but you see more and more people that have have pitched in the job at the big company, they’ve gone off and, and become a violin maker, they spent three years in Italy learning how to make violins or they go to go to France and learn to be a chef and the open the restaurant or, or whatever that, that, that there are more and more young people that are saying, that’s not for me, I don’t want to live that life, I want to go my my own way. And I think a lot of that is attributable to the internationalization of Korea. The Koreans are going overseas very, very regularly. I think pre COVID There was something like 18 or 20 million Korean traveling overseas, while the Korean trips might be might be people making multiple trips, but you know, 18 to 20 million overseas trips in a year. So there’s a lot more knowledge and awareness about about other cultures about other choices of lifestyle, and people are bringing that back. And, and I think you’ve seen a tremendous internationalization of Korea. But what’s most obvious, perhaps, is the restaurants but not just that, as I mentioned earlier choices of lifestyle choices, of career and so forth. So the positive side is that, that the Koreans are choosing alternative ways of living their life. And that’s where innovation and creativity come from. When you have tunnel vision where everybody’s thinking the same thing and doing the same thing. It really stifles creativity and innovation. And I think that, that this internationalization is, is opening those eyes. And of course, the the Internet access we have here is great. You can be in any country in the world in an instant, just by going on the internet. So So I think this opening the eyes of the younger generations in the in the awareness of and, and seeking out alternative, alternative lifestyles had some some loaded loaded baggage with it. And that’s not what I mean. I mean, two different life choices. And I think that that’s that’s tremendous for Korea. And remember, nobody ever nobody ever won the lottery by betting against Korea, there have been naysayers that have predicted the fall of Korea since I can first remember that. Oh, they’re doing well now. But But wait till this happens or wait till that happens. And then they’ll fall on your face and, and Korea has fallen on its face. But every time it’s picked itself up, brushed itself off and gone to newer and better heights. So yeah, I’m an optimist, I believe very much that that Korea is on an upward trajectory, its importance in the world is growing, that it has a lot to offer. A classic story, I mean, some some 10 or 20 years ago, if you told somebody that Samsung was going to be bigger than Sony, they would have been laughed out of the room. So the Korean companies, the Korean people and Hallyu the whole, the whole Korean Wave, you know, we still I believe have a screen quota that you have to show a certain percentage of your movies in the movie theater have to be Korean to irrelevant now because the Korean movies are so good. They command such demand from the from the consumers that that, you know, the screen quote is now meaningless. So, again, who would have thought that Korea would achieve these these what new success is new dimensions in such diverse areas as electronics and, and how Hallyu in the arts and so forth? So yeah, I think that people who write off Korea are are likely to be left behind and disappointed.

Alex Jenson 18:53
Yeah, I’m so grateful that Korea has done that, by the way, because I mean, in my case, my wife could have been from another country on the other side of the world, and I would have ended up there probably, at least initially, I don’t think I plan to stay as long as I have. That’s more to do with Korea than anything else. But maybe that twist of fate is even more relevant in your case where your great grandfather happened to choose to come to in Korea’s case, and, and also speaking of gratitude, thank you so much for sharing this special episode with us. Number 99. We’re going to hear from you as well as your colleague, Penelope Kim in number 100 on Monday, so we’ll have to look forward to that. But for now, Peter Underwood, it’s been a pleasure delving into your own personal history and getting some of your thoughts and Korea.

Peter Underwood 19:38
Thank you. I hope at least a little bit of of it was of interest to your audience. Thanks very much for including me, and good luck with your 100th episode. Congratulations on that.

Alex Jenson 19:47
Well, thank you very much. I absolutely enthralled. Let me also thank Innovation Center Denmark Seoul for making today’s episode possible. As I said we’ll be back with number 100 on Monday.